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“I’ve Got A Job For You To Do”: Matthew Caminer

West London Synagoge

Back in September 2012 Matthew Caminer from Berkshire wrote for Lay Anglicana about the Anglican Cursillo movement.

As he explained in his article, although Cursillo is perhaps best known for its residential weekends, the key to its success is the ongoing support pattern of small local groups and area meetings which are called Ultreyas, the mediaeval Spanish word of encouragement shouted out to pilgrims on the road to Santiago de Compostela, roughly translated as “Keep going!” or “Go for it!”. At an Ultreya, the centrepiece is a short talk by a lay person about how God has been working in their life. This is usually followed by reflections from the audience, and then there is a Gospel response, in which a member of the clergy or a Reader places that Lay Action Talk firmly into the context of the Gospel.

Today it was Matthew’s turn to deliver the Lay Action Talk at the Ultreya that took place in Ascot.  Following the song I, the Lord of sea and sky, here is what he said.


Many people have asked for that song before they stood up to speak, but I have a particular reason this morning. The chorus, “Here I am, Lord” reminds me of little Samuel in the Temple. Now, as you may know, I am Jewish by birth and when I was little I was sent to what was called Hebrew Classes, something vaguely like Sunday School. I remember hearing the story of Samuel in the Temple, and, sitting in the synagogue, a large, rather intimidating, dark Victorian building in London’s West End, I had it all sorted out:

SamuelSamuel slept over there, on the rather hard marble floor by the Ark containing the scrolls.

Eli, the old priest slept over there, at the end, to the right , through that little door, in the room where the rabbis got ready before the service.

And of course God lived over there, behind the vast screen at the back, which hid the organ and from which the choir’s voices could usually be heard, though not seen.

Simple!

Now I, too, was woken in the night. Not as a child, but about two years ago. It started as a dream. Unusually for me, it remained very vivid after I woke up, and I can still picture it now. I was at one of those huge American evangelistic rallies, in a mega-stadium, thousands of people in the audience, a charismatic speaker, all the audio-visual mod-cons you could think of, fabulous solo singers, a wonderful band, and far over to the right as you looked at the stage, a vast choir in tiered ranks. Somewhere in the back of the choir I was making my little contribution.

Somehow, at some point I found myself in the middle of the vast stage, facing not the audience, but the back wall. Two massive doors swung open and I found myself looking into the space.  And that was the end of the dream, except that I came away with a very clear message:

“I’ve got a job for you to do.”

I wasn’t quite sure if this was a message from God or something that I had conjured up in my imagination. I’m not usually given to the heavy drum roll, clouds parting and the booming voice from on high. Whatever, I didn’t know what it meant, so I just smiled and put it down.

All this happened at a time when Miriam, my wife, was well on her way to ordination, and my professional career was at a crossroads. By now, I was a self-employed management consultant. What that actually means, especially for someone of my age, is working for a few months, then not working for a bit, then, getting another contract, and another break, and so on… a sort of stop-start kind of life.

I mentioned Miriam’s training and formation for ordination. For her, the process was all mapped out; but I found that there was nothing on offer to help me to explore how my life would change, or to prepare for the radical impact of Miriam’s ordination on our home life, even though she had opted for  part-time, non-stipendiary ministry. I started talking to husbands and wives of other ordinands, and soon turned this into formal, structured research. This turned into a practical book to help others in the same boat. To my astonishment, the doors of the usually impenetrable world of publishing opened, and I was given a contract. I’m not here to do a publicity spot, so I won’t even say the name of the book, because that would take us down the wrong route, and it’s not what an Ultreya is for.

Soon after the book came out, I suggested to the Principal of Miriam’s old theological college that there might be a case for running a seminar for the spouses of ordinands, because by then my interest had spread not just to husbands of female clergy, but to wives of male clergy also.

Again, the door opened.

I was able to plan an evening with contributions from several subject-matter-experts, and with the full involvement of the Principal himself, because I am not so arrogant as to believe that I have all the answers myself. It was a well-attended event, and a little to my surprise I was invited back, this time to talk to the ordinands themselves, not just to their spouses.

The door never even closed that time, but obligingly stayed open! I was beginning to sense God’s hand on all this.

In the meantime, I got together for a natter with someone else who had written a church-related book, to pick his brains on marketing. As a result of that conversation, I was invited for an interview to be a member of the team of Work Consultants in Oxford Diocese. These are people, both ordained and lay, who work alongside clergy on things like time management, work-life balance, change management and so on… in other words not as a counsellor, for which I certainly don’t have the skills or qualifications; nor as a spiritual director – ditto!  In other words, this is something that makes full use of my experience over many years in business, a career which ended up in management consultancy.

So again, a door opened.  And not only that, but a pattern was beginning to emerge.

By now, a trickle of unsolicited speaking invitations was starting.

One day, while I was at a conference in Oxfordshire, I met the Director of Ordinands from Chichester Diocese. Our conversation was very brief, but the very next day I received an email from him inviting me to run a session in Brighton this time next week for those in Chichester Diocese, not for priests or ordinands, but for those exploring vocations, the very precious seedlings in God’s greenhouse.  I trample on their sense of vocation at my peril!

Another door had opened without my even touching it, and I would certainly value your prayers for that important event.

If anyone were to ask me what my ministry was, I think I would always have said it was a Ministry of Encouragement, with the focus on clergy and their families. I don’t know how this emerged, but somehow I had instinctively realised that we expect a huge amount from our clergy but give little back. Examples help: many years ago, I found that I had developed a practice, which I am sure that some of you share. What happened was this. If I was phoning the Rectory to talk to the Vicar, and it was his wife who answered the phone, I knew that she quite rightly hated being used as an answering service and generally taken for granted. She wasn’t “The Vicar’s Wife”. She was Alison, a mother of two small children, and a GP in training… a person in her own right. So when she answered the phone, I made a point of talking to her for a few minutes about things that concerned her, before asking to speak to her husband. Yes, she may have seen through it, but it was a start.

To help me do my job as a Work Consultant I am now studying a branch of psychology called Transactional Analysis. This explores how we relate to ourselves and each other. My purpose in doing this is not to become a therapist but really to know what I don’t know and be better able to recognise and respect the boundaries. I researched it a bit, started working my way through the text book, then looked for courses and… guess what?  There was one happening on the only weekend that was free in my diary, and at a price which I could afford.

So yet another door opened.

A series of doors… opening up onto a balanced portfolio of things that relate to each other, that I can do largely by living off my business pension, because the church does not have infinite funds.  Why do I suggest that this is from God and not of my own doing? Well, we never know for certain, but here are a few reasons:

  • There was a repeated pattern about it
  • It was being confirmed by other people
  • It was bearing fruit
  • There is a sense of inspiration whenever I am doing this work.
  • Conversely, opportunities to do my normal professional work simply haven’t felt right – there was one only last week.

And finally, as if to prove the point, between first drafting this talk and delivering it today, I received yet another invitation, this time to talk to a congregation that was in the middle of an interregnum about the challenges, expectations and assumptions that their incoming clergy family will have as they settle in and learn to live their lives in a new environment.  A different kind of door, but another door opening, nonetheless.

If I had tried to look into the future five years ago, I could never have envisaged how this  rather vague ministry of encouragement would have led me eventually in a new direction; nor would I have thought that a somewhat gothic, technicolour dream would turn into a new career. All in all, it does seem to make sense and it does feel as if it is ‘Of God’, and is the apostolic action to which I am now called.  So, I heard the words: “I have a job for you to do” and responded “Here I am, Lord”


Matthew’s book is entitled “A Clergy Husband’s Survival Guide” (SPCK 2012). It was reviewed by Lay Anglicana, Dean Roberts, Beau Stevenson, and Phil Groom  amongst many others, as a quick search will confirm.

8 comments on this post:

Joyce said...
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Tremendous story, especially the validations and confirmations you are receiving as you go along. TA was all the rage when I first heard of it in the seventies. I’m glad to know it’s still going. All the best for that and for the future ! May your memories of this blessed time sustain you if the road ever gets rocky for a while.

Matthew Caminer said...
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Thanks Joyce!

13 May 2013 15:40
13 May 2013 14:08
minidvr said...
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Matthew, thank you.

I see doors opening for you, freely and perhaps unasked. Discernment seems to have been a journey of faith which has taken you to new places which is a wonderful reflection of how God is active and witnessing alongside you in your journey.

If only!! I too am a latecomer to discerning a vocation to something. I thought that it was to ordained ministry. A call that was (and remains strong) but was discerned differently by the church. The result is that 12 months later, I remain out on a limb, trying to discern the lay ministry pathway that the Church acknowledged exists, but has nothing to offer, the normal pathways such as Reader etc, having been discounted in the 3 years it took to get to BAP.

For me, doors have failed to open or even be ajar. I’ve had enormous support from my previous parish priest, from my SD and family, friends and parishioners, but still the door remains firmly shut. The vocations team have nothing to offer, in fact, there is to be no lay training in the next year due to lack of finances.

Prayer is a help and perseverance and patience are qualities you need in abundance, but frustration and disappointment compete with self doubt and a sense of perhaps it’s all a big mistake or some form of self-delusion?

But, the inner call remains frustratingly strong and demanding, but no fresh opportunities offer themselves. Bound into a system that works slowly (but thoroughly) but not it seems flexibly enough to see that not all candidates fit into a particular box for ministry.

A chance meeting with the Bishop recently might hold out some hope, but I’m ot holding my breath. My message to God might be, please hurry up!!

15 May 2013 04:54
Matthew Caminer said...
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Dear Minidvr (I assume that’s your Sunday name!)

From what I hear your situation is all too common, though it is good to hear that you have at least some ongoing support. All too often people get that ‘no’ and, shoulder to shoulder, the church removes any sense of interest, and, in turn, people sometimes leave the church altogether.

The hows and whys of when people get a ‘yes’ and when they get a ‘no’ at BAP are a mystery to me, as I have some first rate people turned down, and some pretty dysfunctional people recommended for training. I have also heard of people sent to BAPs because their diocese was too cowardly to say ‘no’ to the candidate’s face. And conversely I have heard of BAP ‘no’ results being over-ruled within a diocese. Having said all that, I read all the criteria when my wife went through that particular mincing machine, and I heard all about everything that happened, and I guess the process is as good as anything else.

Compare that with the business world where it is reckoned that a CV gets an average (maximum even?) of 14 seconds before it is put on the reject pile or put forward for interview. Thorough and systematic? I think not!

I have no idea which diocese you are in, but I have found that Cursillo (which works for me, though not for everyone) is an excellent outlet for lay ministry, almost regardless of personal spirituality. Or perhaps you are designed to be a lay Spiritual Director. Or meant to take some time out to do some study.

The fact that your message is on the whole half-full, not half-empty gives me the freedom to say that it actually sounds a rather exciting time. Some might say: “Let go, and let God”.

15 May 2013 09:43
Matthew Caminer said...
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You make a wider point, about the fact that not all candidates fit into a particular box. I think the church would genuinely like to think that it could deliver on 1 Cor 12 and provide an eclectic mix of different spiritualities, personalities, gifts and more besides. But for whatever reasons, it seems to me that the actual result is:

a) A process that is based pretty much on ‘one size fits all’

and

b) A lifestyle and workload that turn clergy from the Mary’s that at heart they are called to be, into ever-busier Martha’s doing as many or more things unrelated to their calling as things that are.

As someone said, with all our knowledge of Myers Briggs, Enneagram etc, you’d think we might have an approach that reflects and addresses those realities.

That becomes even more relevant when I think back to one of Laura’s earlier posts here, about lay involvement in the large benefice system, which is predicated not, I think, on a vision for the church, but pragmatically on reduced numbers of stipendiary clergy supported by increasing numbers of self-supporting and/or part-time clergy… something that is simply unsustainable without the rich input of lay people, whether Readers, licensed to other tasks or whatever. I think the jury is out on whether congregations ‘get it’ though, and whether they may feel they need a ‘proper priest’ in order to meet and worship.

15 May 2013 10:08
minidvr said...
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Matthew, thanks for such a comprehensive reply.

Taking firstly, the issues with selection and training. BAP is about suitability for training or Ordained Ministry, not a ticket to be ordained. During the process we did the mandatory Myers Briggs and Enneagram as being self-aware is quite an important part of the process. Before BAP I attended a Diocesan Panel, which was affirming and I was sent to BAP with the Bishop’s recommendation. However, he accepted the outcome of BAP, and to be honest on the evidence presented (whether or not I thought that it was truly representative of my performance) I’d have said NOT as well. So, I’m not surprised that I’m in Limbo now.

Multi-church Benefices: I’m in a 5 church benefice, in interregnum, working with another 4 church benefice to merge by next year. The working group is getting on with the necessary work practical, pastoral, legal and theological to bring the benefices together. This is a difficult and complex process, which is hampered by parish priest moving at relatively short notice to another benefice which had a vacancy for more than a year. 5 Churches is a difficult balancing act, 9 will be even more. And I understand that there are some benefices with 12 churches in some dioceses.

Part of this work is about empowering the laity, nurturing current and discerning new lay vocations must be a major part of the role of the parish priest. At his or her best, they can only hope to know the majority of their people superficially, y, how are they expected to ‘talent spot’ in this environment, at best it will be hit or miss or reliant on other lay ministers to do the talent spotting, encouraging and nurturing as a team effort.

One thing that I had stated to the Vicar before his departure and which I believe to be true for all called to ministry is that it must be an authentic and credible role, fully discerned, supported by properly resourced training, appropriately authorised or licensed and supervised, with a working agreement. It must have a ministry development profile which allows for appropriate theological reflection individually and jointly with the supervising minister. Surely this is the minimum that is needed, but is that sort of commitment to much for many potential vocations?

I sense there is the potential for a role as a Parish Evangelist or similar in my benefice. It’s not something that will be available unless it’s discerned by the new Vicar, clearly defined in a working agreement and supported by the PCC and deployed after appropriate training – all of which appears to be a long way off at the moment.

15 May 2013 18:27
Matthew Caminer said...
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Interesting to see how it will all develop. I still have this niggling question… would the Church be putting ll this trust in SSMs, LLMs and other forms of Lay ministry if it could afford comprehensive coverage with stipendiary. Put another way, is this move towards ever larger benefices vision-drive or pragmatic finance-driven?

For my part, I have not really been looking for an outlet for ministry as such, but have just felt driven to do what I am doing. I’m not sure if that makes sense. I suppose my approval comes not so much from being pre-licensed or pre-approved but, rather like TV programmes, from the ratings. If people don’t like my message or the way I deliver it, the word will go out and the invitations will dry up, and I’ll sit back in my armchair and get on with a crossword.

One point that you make that is worth picking up… a sort of Catch 22… how can the vicar of an ever-growing benefice possibly get close enough to individuals to discern where they are spiritually in the first place, let alone whether they have the mix of qualities needed to exercise a ministry. And if they don’t, then how do they build up the team that is critical to the life of the benefice?

17 May 2013 17:20
minidvr said...
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Thanks again, for another enlightening reply. I suspect your comment about being felt ‘driven’ to do what you are doing, is similar to the call I fee. But the reality is that I don’t have the sort of background that you have to offer a service not generally or widely available within the church and if it was contracted in, would probably be on commercial terms that would make it unaffordable.

My background is military, mainly in HR and administration in later years, but quite wide ranging in logistics, finance, budgets, training etc. And some of those skills are in use as a treasurer and as a member of the Benefice Council, There doesn’t seem to be much demand for tor the military management side of things, for which I was awarded a level 7 qualification before retirement from the C&GI before retirement. And in some spheres within the church, despite the advent of MAP, management skills are not highly regarded.

I’ll just have to keep on keeping on I suspect.

17 May 2013 19:36

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